tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post8456483551048056571..comments2023-05-10T05:37:01.435-04:00Comments on Torah Insights for OA: Are the Twelve Steps Kosher? from Rabbi Avraham Twerskitioahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06405594969952247625noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post-71412284814007411612010-10-29T14:59:35.814-04:002010-10-29T14:59:35.814-04:00I did not say that I can not remember who, I said ...I did not say that I can not remember who, I said that I do not have rushus to quote him.<br /><br />I did ask Das Torah, I asked my Rav when I started.tioahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06405594969952247625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post-63324191396652900692010-10-29T13:10:01.671-04:002010-10-29T13:10:01.671-04:00You're learning Mussar sefarim. Fantastic. But...You're learning Mussar sefarim. Fantastic. But realize that Mussar isn't a "study", it's the approach that Torah is a Program.<br /><br />You didn't get "da'as Torah", you got second hand info from a gadol you don't even remember the name of.<br /><br />And as I wrote, I didn't reject 12 Step programming as much as<br /><br />1- Reject the identification of the "higher power that redeems" with Hashem, rather than Judaism's focus on redemption through the beris.<br /><br />I intentionally did not post with the notion of shaking someone from a program that is working for them. I instead posted the subtle changes that are necessary to better adapt something originally designed by Notzrim to a Torah-based worldview.<br /><br />2- I lament the fact that hundreds of Orthodox Jews are willing to invest the time and effort to follow some outsiders' spirituality, but won't join ve'adim and invest the same effort on a mesorah-dik one.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post-31530448578820248872010-10-26T21:56:29.577-04:002010-10-26T21:56:29.577-04:00I have been part of a group learning mussar sefori...I have been part of a group learning mussar seforim for over 8 years now. We learned Ramchal, Rav Dessler, Rav Shimshion Pinchus, and others. I have grown a lot from it, but I was still killing myself with food.<br /><br />I spoke to Rebbetzin Heller about the 12 steps and she said that she went with someone to a Godol in EY (I am not sure if I can say who). They discussed it in depth and he gave rushus for it, but not for casual use, only if there is a real need.<br /><br />You have a right to reject it for yourself, but I have a right to follow the Daas Torah that I consulted and to use them to save my life.tioahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06405594969952247625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post-4904534730897614032010-10-26T20:46:05.278-04:002010-10-26T20:46:05.278-04:00... and must be sure their rav actually knows the ...... and must be sure their rav actually knows the metzi'us of the 12 Steps, as well as knowing the dinim of avodah zara. Far too many rabbanim who would call a specialist when it comes to kashrus or eruv are perfectly willing to pasqen questions of emunah without ever having learned Emunos veDei'os, Moreh Nevukhim, the Kuzari, Chovos haLvavos probably yes -- but not the first sha'ar, Milkhemes Hashem, kisvei Maharal, the Tanya, Even Sheleimah, all four she'arim of Nefesh haChaim, Horeb, Meshekh Chokhmah, etc, etc, etc...<br /><br />I gave a relatively straightforward workaround.<br /><br />I also wonder why someone would work the 12 Steps rather than founding / joining a group that works the Mesilas Yesharim's 9. Perishus and Neqi'us deal directly with addiction. IOW, why use something adopted from the Oxford Group when you can turn to your own mesorah?<br /><br />Would you join a group that practices eastern meditation, even if the group stripped out all the idols' names from the mantras?<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post-26383264617110977642010-10-26T18:57:56.273-04:002010-10-26T18:57:56.273-04:00My husband spoke to our Rav and he said that this ...My husband spoke to our Rav and he said that this program is saving my life, I should view it as pikuach nefesh. I have lost 79 pounds and Hashem has reversed many life threatening illnesses because of this. I spoke to Rebbetzin Kalmonovitz about the 12 steps and she said that they are acceptable. If you are uncomfortable with their interpretation you can use your own, but there is a power of healing in the 12 steps that is a gift from Hashem. I started this blog becasue I wanted to draw inspiration from Torah sources and not goyish sources, but I am extremely grateful for the changes in my life since I began OA.<br />Each person has to ask their own Rav.tioahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06405594969952247625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post-34928736332736036512010-10-26T17:42:42.315-04:002010-10-26T17:42:42.315-04:00You don't hear the huge size of the difference...You don't hear the huge size of the difference between "hav[ing] G-d remove all these defects of character" and "remov[ing] our shortcomings" and asking Him to help us do so?<br /><br />Its the difference between the Notzri notion of salvation through faith and dependence on Yeishu, and the notion of teshuvah, mitzvos, and "מִפִּי עֶלְיוֹן לֹא תֵצֵא, הָרָעוֹת וְהַטּוֹב. מַה יִּתְאוֹנֵן אָדָם חָי, גֶּבֶר עַל-חֲטָאָו." (Eikhah 3:28-29)<br /><br />The only way I can think of engaging in 12 Step programming without invoking such problems would be to make a transvaluation of "Higher Power" as great as the Big Book advises atheists.<br /><br />In <i>Yahadus</i> the Higher Power that redeems souls is not Hashem alone, it is the <i>beris</i> between us and the Aibishter.<br /><br />The difference, albeit subtle, is arguably between Torah and avodah zara -- with all that implies for true redemption.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post-44212692440450434622010-10-26T17:29:29.333-04:002010-10-26T17:29:29.333-04:00Rav Dessler uses the analogy of a battlefield and ...Rav Dessler uses the analogy of a battlefield and he talks about conquering ground and moving on. The problem is when we never believe that we have truly conquered that ground and we are constantly fighting our Yetzer Hara for the same piece of terf. In OA we learn that with the help of Hashem we can move our Bechirah point beyond what we had assumed was the limit of our ability to change. I am helping someone now who is struggling and her Rav told her that her problem is that she is trying to do it alone. She has to accept that it is only through Tefilah and reliance on Hashem that she can move forward through the steps.tioahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06405594969952247625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post-70487431387869591612010-10-26T05:33:35.769-04:002010-10-26T05:33:35.769-04:00Tiao: you're describing the first to steps, wh...Tiao: you're describing the first to steps, when you speak about asking for Hashem's help only in things that are beyond our control. Things <a href="http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/06/rav-dessler-point-of-free-will-michtav.html" rel="nofollow">Rav Dessler would call</a> beyond our "<i>bechirah</i> point".<br /><br />(Personally, I find "well beyond my <i>bechirah</i> point" a very helpful definition of addiction.)<br /><br />But in steps 6&7 we are asked to relinquish responsibility for correcting our middos. Whatever work one does at this point in the 12 Steps is to help G-d reassume control of my "fear/awe of heaven", not to do it ourselves -- asking Him to help us.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post-48208671078787441152010-10-26T04:13:15.108-04:002010-10-26T04:13:15.108-04:00I think that you are misunderstanding the steps. I...I think that you are misunderstanding the steps. It is not that it is Hashems's job to fix us, it is our job to fix ourselves. It is just that we can not do it alone. We have to daven for Hashem to help us. If you take a look at the article I wrote, "Perscription for a miracle" (link on the right from the picture of a perscription) I talk about learning to be a partner with Hashem. not waiting for a miracle to happen, but being proactive. Tp me the essense of the steps is taking action to change your life for the better with help from Hashem.tioahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06405594969952247625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4125771004536405934.post-86706628440507454592010-10-25T22:10:05.684-04:002010-10-25T22:10:05.684-04:00Steps 3, 6, and 7 presume it's Hashem's jo...Steps 3, 6, and 7 presume it's Hashem's job to fix us. That we are incapable of fixing ourselves, that all we can do is turn to Him to do so. It speaks the Xian language of salvation through faith, rather than the Jewish language of man's task in life to work toward redemption. Yes, we can't succeed without Hashem's help -- but we "own" the job, Hashem assists. "All is in control of heaven except fear/awe of heaven." We aren't supposed to relinquish control of that.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.com